@indi Yeah, I absolutely get that tbh.

Just as a white American, the way I hear a lot of white shamanic writers talk about shamanism always feels really gross tbh?

This book seems really good though?

@spiderrobotpig Yeah. >.< When it's coming out of New Age stuff, shamanic teachings have a lot of the same problems that other newage stuff does, a desperate attempt at proving validity by tying itself to... whatever else. Pseudoscience, some sort of cultural traditions, whatever. It's intensely disheartening at best.

@indi It's super not great. Might be part of why I'm drawn to technomagic and various incorporation of modern times?

Like, I feel like I can understand things and feel things better in a modern context, and why wouldn't we use tools at our disposal for witchcraft?

@indi Yeah, I had thought the name sounded familiar haha

@spiderrobotpig There's a lot in common between chaos magic and shamanism in general, so it's no surprise that Phil Hine is writing about it. It's like... remember what I said about it all going back to animism plus trance states? Chaos magic is basically rooted in just focussing on the 'trance states' part of that (gnosis, etc).

@indi Oh yeah that makes sense actually >^<

TRANCE STATES ARE GOOD

Chaos Magick has given me the easiest in for trance states tbh

"Nothing is true, everything is permitted"

That breaks my brain damn near every time haha

@spiderrobotpig The reason that doesn't work for me is that I ended up with the animism stuff, the spirit-world experiences for lack of a better term, before I ran into any of the rest, so hearing Chaos Magic treat it all like it's psychological effects or constructed servitors feels pretty bad to me ALSO.

@indi Oh yeah, that definitely makes sense tbh

It's got a lot to do with previous experiences imo?

Like I'm drawn to chaos magick because it's just how my brain works, probably related to autism.

I could totally see if you started elsewhere that it could sound really terrible >.<

@spiderrobotpig I mean, I'm on the spectrum myself, and I think that's tied in with my spiritwork too? More at ease interacting with non-human persons than human ones? :)

Chaos magic did and does appeal to me in a lot of ways too, and my practice still has some elements of that (ask me about my sigil wall) but it does still all derive from an animistic paradigm.

(Though TBH I think a lot of chaotes root themselves in a gnostic paradigm and then just refuse to admit it. :P)

@indi Oh most definitely. Like, one of my biggest issues with Chaotes is just the whole "NOTHING IS REAL BE RANDOM" thing when they -clearly- believe in their craft and they tend to shame people for not being /Raaaaaaational/

@spiderrobotpig YES YES YES.

If chaos magic means "experiment until you find what works for you and build around that" then I'm still doing it.

If it means "pretentiously tout how often you're switching up your paradigms" then eff that. ;)

@indi Yeah, I'm definitely the former, not the latter.

I want to figure out how magick works best for me. I'm not here to constantly break my brain or pretend to get into the paradigm of a bigot to "UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING"

I understand them just fine as it is. I'm here to be a badass witch tbh

@spiderrobotpig Most of the time I get talked down to about actually believing in spirits it's from little babby chaotes going "don't you know it's just all psychological?" >.<

(I mean, there's also the atheopagans, but let's just leave that subject aside for now)

@indi I know nothing about them haha

And bluh. Even if it IS just all psycological, and there's totally no proof of that, the whole point is that it's real if you believe in it >.<

I'm honestly not sure where I am on that particular piece, but I do believe that it's more than psycological

@spiderrobotpig Like, I"m willing to agree that it's all psychological too, if we allow that 'psyche' doesn't just refer to a singular mind connected to a single physical body. ;)

@indi Oh same.

I thought one of the big things in Chaos Magick is that we're all connected actually?

@spiderrobotpig I mean, that sounds a bit too paradigmatic to be a chaos magic 'big thing'. I've also seen a lot of shitty solipsist chaotes. ;)

@indi Fair enough >^<

I'm definitely of the "Collective Subconcious" party tbh

@spiderrobotpig That's pretty close to what I'm saying, but both those words feel like they put their baggage in the wrong place. ;)

That's why I prefer "Spirit World" ;)

@indi That's a good word ;3

Gonna yoink it haha

@spiderrobotpig Well I didn't exactly invent it. ;)

I've also been known to use "The Dreaming" when I need to emphasize that it includes what we often otherwise think of as imaginary/fictional worlds.

@indi Oh that's really neat. :3

You are a very good actually, and it's always cool to talk to you tbh

@spiderrobotpig Thanks! You too, and I love talking about this stuff in general really. :)

@indi Same!

I don't get to actually dig into it enough, and I've learned a bit more about my own goals now from talking with you which is always good tbh

@spiderrobotpig Glad to help! :)

Oh by the way, since we're sorta talking around the edges of animism here too, there's a book I like to recommend about that too: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009W12LA0

It's got some pretty dense philosophical content but it's very well-argued and the conclusion it presents is the nearest thing I've ever seen to my exact worldview in (non-fiction) text. :)

@indi Nice! Not expensive either, so I'll definitely be checking that out once I get paid :3

@spiderrobotpig This is why I have some sympathy for at least DISCUSSION of practices from cultures that are not my own, they tend to have worldviews that are more compatible with mine in that regard.

@indi Oh absolutely :3

I love to learn and discuss different forms of witchcraft, there's so much to learn and find out how people experience witchcraft in general tbh