@sonya trumps chief strategist is a nazi. if you support nazis, you're a nazi. you don't get a neutral option here, people are dying.

@fxck I'll happily grant that Steve Bannon is a racist, but saying he's a Nazi is ridiculous. Look, I've had this argument about a million times. I don't think that vilifying everyone who disagrees with you as evil is productive. If you want to know more about what I think, read these links:

@fxck 1) http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/punching-richard-spencer/
2) https://www.sonyaellenmann.com/2016/06/tips-positive-interactions-online.html
3) https://www.sonyaellenmann.com/2016/05/hostility-online-discourse-round-two.html
4) https://www.sonyaellenmann.com/2016/06/failures-learning-failures-teaching.html

Besides that, I don't think we're going to have a fruitful discussion.

@sonya no, we aren't, because you're wilfully ignorant. too caught up in the identity politics of rigidly defining what is and isn't nazism in your personal opinion to see the world of injustices you inhabit and ignore. go outside for once and stop being so sheltered. your views are garbage and are holding back progress.

@fxck http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/23/in-favor-of-niceness-community-and-civilization/

gonna stop responding now

@sonya there's really rather a lot of space between, "deliberately alienating nazi sympathizers" and, "vilifying everyone who disagrees with you as evil"

@sonya I may not think that everyone wearing a MAGA hat is necessarily *unreachable* but it's probably not worth the bother at this point

@sonya And to a lot of people, that hat causes similar reactions as, for instance, blackface

@LogicalDash I don't really want to flog this issue to death, if you're interested in what I think you should read the links I sent to the other person, here: https://maly.io/users/sonya/updates/5614

and this one: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/23/in-favor-of-niceness-community-and-civilization/

@sonya I read a few

The fact that you think they're relevant makes me very uneasy toward you

@LogicalDash why do you feel like they're not relevant? all of those links are about how to communicate with other people in a productive manner

@sonya The question, now, is when it's worth communicating with them at all

@sonya I don't think it's worth arguing with Nazi sympathizers, you should just shun them

@sonya And for reference, when certain liberals objected more strenuously to the vandalism at Berkeley than to anything Milo said, I regarded those people as Nazi sympathizers

Close enough

@LogicalDash see, that makes me very uneasy about you

@sonya Is it threatening to you that I'm willing to write people off for caring a lot more about civility than preventing actual harm?

@LogicalDash C'mon, that's a "when did you stop beating your wife" question

If you can't or won't argue in good faith, I don't want to continue this conversation.

@sonya It was an honest question. You feel uneasy toward me and I'm guessing at why.

@LogicalDash The actual reason why is that I think "escalate violence against those you disagree with" is a terrible norm

Seriously, read the SSC post

@sonya It starts by misrepresenting the quoted position, which I'd summarize as "debunking certain lies is a waste of time," as "lying is ok if it serves your political ends"

If you really want me to finish this I guess I'll give the rest a skim at least

@sonya 1) Shunning people is not necessarily escalation, it depends on the nature of the offence

2) I don't think the vandalism at Berkeley was escalation, given the guy who got shot at Milo's last rally, and given Milo promised to out undocumented citizens in front of an audience

@sonya Announcing allegiance to Trump is at the very least an acquiescence to xenophobia, and I think shunning a person for that is fine

I don't hate people who choose to engage, necessarily, but I also think it's perfectly sensible to disengage

"All MAGA hat wearers are nazis" is a silly thing to say, I guess, but on the other hand a person who wears MAGA is more likely Nazi than one who doesn't, and shunning ambiguously-Nazis is fine too

@LogicalDash shun whoever you want. like I said, I'm not trying to force anyone to talk to anyone else

@sonya No, you're just going to ridicule those who do so in ways you find uncouth

@sonya I guess you're really sticking to this idea that putting Trump supporters in a group with Nazis counts as a lie against them

And subtooting me about it

I see you.

@LogicalDash look, if you're not willing to agree to disagree I'm just going to block you and we can both go on with our lives

@sonya Then I leave you with a link of my own https://extranewsfeed.com/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1af7007d6376

@LogicalDash also, there's no way that you actually read the Slate Star Codex post that fast. it's definitely the best one.

@sonya demanding that I read long articles before you'll engage with me is suspiciously similar to a derailing tactic

@LogicalDash painting every Trump supporter as a "Nazi sympathizer" is ludicrous

like, the average Trump supporter is not advocating for eugenics or genocide

I'm not even claiming that most of them aren't racist! it's hard to tell, I don't know enough of them

@sonya You don't have to personally advocate eugenics or genocide to be a Nazi sympathizer. A lot of actual Nazis didn't advocate for those things, they just weren't deal breakers.