@saper that's a good point. 🤔

In theory #OpenStreetMap is supposed to be a collaborative, community made map, so surely making more mapper to mapper communication is good, right?

I don't wanna scare people off though.....

@ebel I am pretty alone in my sorroundings, when I need help I turn to wiki or fora and it works. There were some very few interactions around map bugs but that is fine.

@saper what I'm thinking of is an opt in thing per changeset. So I fix something that is obviously wrong, something that looks like a newbie mistake, I like to contact the original mapper to tell them, which usually isn't too far from the changeset comment anyway. This would just automate that step....

@ebel what I like more is just to fix the mistake and not bother the author, unless this is an obviously malicious activity. They might learn if they visit the place again, maybe.

Some contributors tend to focus on this "correctional" activity and forget we are building one thing together - mainly by fixing mistakes of others.

But that's disputable of course. I don't mind publishing a rough draft instead of aiming for a perfect thing that never comes.

@saper a rough draft is always better than no contribution. If you can improve the map, then do it. Even if it's a little improvement.

I'm not suggesting this sort of tool for when someone does building=yes and you replace it with building=house, I'm thinking of cases where someone is obviously new. Like mapping a barn as landuse=farmland name=pig shed. (fixed that today).

@ebel oh I think I did building=yes many times :)

@saper I wouldn't do this sort of message for a building=yes, that's still a legit contribution, and possibly the best someone can do.

Just adding area=yes though....

@saper @ebel This is an interesting debate - I think in Germany it‘s considered more rude to fix someone‘s mistake without giving them an explanation (really a cultural thing, I guess).

@stefanieschulte @ebel oh I didn't know that, despite living there for years! Highly interesting!

@stefanieschulte @ebel Managers sent from Germany to Poland had to go a special intercultural course how to deal with employee dramas and egos. Any (superhealthy) criticism is taken deeply personally and maybe considered offensive. Not a good thing either :)

Some of my German colleagues might consider me a drama queen and a shitposter :)

@saper @ebel Maybe it's a particular thing among (German?) writers. When I was a journalist and edited someone else's article without telling them, all hell broke lose. When I explained the changes to them (before we published the article), the reporters usually accepted it (even if the conversations were a bit tricky sometimes).

@stefanieschulte @ebel well, this is understandable and probably universal, because it may hit author's pride. I am more thinking about casual everyday employee-employer work relationships.

@saper @ebel I think it depends on the complexity of the task, and the skills required to do it. Telling someone "you left your empty coffee mug on our table, I removed it for you" would be considered rude in Germany as well (although there are Germans who would say such a thing, anyway).

@stefanieschulte @saper @ebel I recently had a German chap on here (politely) explain "die Kätzin" was a dialect word from Bayern/AT/CH rather than Hochdeutsch (its use certainly seems to be contentious) but vets use it and *was* in the context of a tortoiseshell cat which appears in my garden when I was playing this quite loud (or if I play any Oberkrainer) *and* she is the only cat who likes the (supposedly healthy/non fattening and cheap) Austrian cat treats 😸

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdyhIVjUujw

@vfrmedia @saper @ebel Must admit I never heard the word "Kätzin" before. 😸 "Katze" is one of the few German words were female is considered the default - we usually say "Katze" when we mean either a female cat or a cat in general. If we want to point out that the cat is male, we use the word "Kater".

@ebel @saper @vfrmedia Just noticed that I made several typos in my earlier toots. Some rather annoying Germans would probably point them all out to me 🙁

On the other hand, if somebody in Germany repeatedly misspells a more difficult word, and nobody tells them, they might say: "Oh, this is so embarrassing! Why didn't anybody tell me?"

@stefanieschulte @ebel @vfrmedia sometimes I feel that quality of the German Language in the every day in the office life is deteriorating rapidly, and I mean native speakers, without any #MigrationsHintergrund. I feel I need to take some activities outside of my work to practice proper German since it hasn't improved for years and I feel very bad about it.

Once I even barked at my co-worker who routinely mixed up grammar with "How am I even supposed to learn German in this environment" :)

@saper @ebel @vfrmedia Is it poor German, or just some form of slang or regional dialect? Here in the Rhein-Ruhr area, the German varies a lot, depending on whether people are from Rhineland, Westphalia or from the Ruhr region (which is part Rhineland, part Westphalia, but has its own dialect).

@stefanieschulte @ebel @vfrmedia casual office Hochdeutsch. In #Frankfurt people tend not to show off dialects (#Hessisch is used usually only if negotiated by mutual consent and familiarity).

I find regional differences in German very interesting, something most people do not realize unless they live here (Germany is generally viewed as a pretty monolithic country, which is unfair in my opinion). I would like to be able to recognize major German regional varietes myself.

@stefanieschulte @saper @ebel the use of Kätzin does seem to be a "North/South" thing; but is common on sites for cat breeders and scientific papers (a lot do seem to be from TU-München and AT)

possible also that my google results are skewed by analytics sent by K-TV and my curiosity about Volksmusik of Bayern and Tirol.

This could also explain why there are low fat cat/dog treats (no longer sold in my UK shop, I guess the British pets didn't think much of them)

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/uebergewichtige-tiere-ach-du-dicker-hund-1.3761483

@vfrmedia @stefanieschulte @ebel Try http://ddg.gg/ maybe for less biased search :) Drawing cultural differences can be fun. I realized "Moin moin" does not really work around 80km south from #Frankfurt anymore. Also some #Swiss contacts told me that the real cultural #Röstigraben can be recognized not by the French/German language border but by the way people name playing card colours (French vs. German):)

@saper @vfrmedia @ebel As far as I know, in parts of Northern Germany, you aren't allowed to say "Moin Moin", though. Only a single "Moin" is acceptable. On the other hand, they use "Moin" all day long, while people here in Rhineland will look at you weird when you say it in the afternoon. But even I as a native German, don't understand this in full...

@vfrmedia @saper I think Wikipedia is quite good about the science of "Moin": https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moin

@stefanieschulte @vfrmedia Hessischer Rundfunk ran a nice story about today's article in Die Welt (I think?) how modern high German evolved out of a dialect.

@saper @vfrmedia Unfortunately, I'm unable to get behind the paywall, but the article teaser makes an interesting point about dialects being considered "inferior", even if they can play an important role from a linguistic perspective.

@stefanieschulte @vfrmedia I just checked out their homepage and it made me feel sick

@saper @vfrmedia Welt.de?

@stefanieschulte @vfrmedia Yes. "An ihrer Packung sollt ihr sie erkennen, mündige Bürger Europas, und an der Kasse über ihren Marktanteil abstimmen!"

I am pretty certain we are heaving a heavy case of corruption in the federal government and they write things like the above.

@stefanieschulte @vfrmedia @ebel Yes, I am definitely with those single, all-day moiners. Maybe because I know some folk from #Dithmarschen pretty well :)

@stefanieschulte @saper The context for this is the #OpenStreetMap project, which is a wiki map. So the idea of correcting and changing other's work is taken for granted.

Most of my mapping is done outside of Germany, because the Germans have done it all!

@ebel @stefanieschulte still the borough borders of my town are incorrect! and some recycling points are missing!!! :)

@saper get mapping!

@ebel ... er where is my bike

@ebel @saper Must admit I have never contributed to OSM, but isn't it considered normal to provide an explanation when you change somebody else's work even in wiki projects?

@stefanieschulte @ebel this is what sometimes annoys me in wikis - people point out, but do not fix.

@saper @ebel On http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/PmWiki (I contributed a few addons and did some work on the project wiki), people usually did both (make changes and explain them).

@stefanieschulte @ebel I meant #wikipedia mostly. (which is not quite a wiki but I digress:)

@saper When even Wikipedia isn't a wiki, what is? 🤔

@stefanieschulte

http://wiki.c2.com/?WikiIsNotWikipedia

@saper Without all those dull rules, Wikipedia wouldn‘t be so large, though, I guess. Or as a long-term Wikipedian (can‘t find the post right now, must have been on the birdsite or even on fb) once pointed out: Successful anarchy is hard work and can even get quite boring...

@stefanieschulte I don't think it's an anarchy, and certainly not a democracy (whatever it means).

Late stage Wikipedia is certainly not a playground it once was. There are people launching "pre-Wikipedia" wikis where stuff may grow before it gets accepted. Something like Wikipedia originally was.

@saper Interestingly, Wikipedia looks a lot like a traditional encyclopedia, which is why most people respect it, but it also has those (sometimes) really weird talk pages.

@saper Thread about Wikipedia, anarchy, "organised chaos" etc. on (I know, I know...) Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/davidgerard/posts/10156168992209045 (of course, it's from people who consider Wikipedia a success)

@stefanieschulte I am afraid my personal proxy is blocking fb :)

@stefanieschulte @saper More weird than the notes written in the margins of dead tree encyclopedias in the library.

@drwho @saper Historians will love them, I guess...

@stefanieschulte @saper One hopes.

@drwho @saper Alternatively, they might get very frustrated. Or draw interesting conclusions.

@stefanieschulte @saper I think "interesting conclusions" is the best possible outcome. :)

@stefanieschulte @saper yes #OpenStreetMap has, and requires, that you comment every edit. What I'm talking about to then messaging the original contributor(s) to tell them that I have changed what they added originally, and why. My goal is to help educate new users, because it's easy to make mistakes in #OSM.

@ebel @saper Wouldn’t it be more desirable to allow them to (voluntarily) subscribe to changes? This is what I did on www.pmwiki.org

@stefanieschulte @ebel Yes, I like the "watch" feature better.

@stefanieschulte @saper Well a new user wouldn't know about these things! #OpenStreetMap doesn't have anything like #Wikipedia's watchlist feature. You can monitor all changes in an area, but not all your changes. #OSM, unlike #WP, is lots of little changes.

@saper @stefanieschulte I am thinking of writing an #OSM watchlist feature myself actually. But there's so much data! :(

@stefanieschulte @ebel @saper

No, not at all. The edits you make in #OpenStreetMap become part of the commons, it's no longer treated as "yours". It's normal for objects to go through multiple changes, without the original editor knowing what changes has been made, unless they make an effort to monitor their contributions.

My understanding of OSM culture is that it doesn't strongly promote the sense of ownership over what is contributed, but rather, responsibility and collaboration.

@GOwin @stefanieschulte @saper There is sometimes ownerships in #OpenStreetMap. Some people really like one topic and map that a lot, and care for that type of data.

e.g. the Germans #train fans have lots of detailed docs about how to tag train signal in #OSM: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Dsignal

@ebel @stefanieschulte @saper

I meant data "ownership" in the sense used by the other poster, not thematic mapping.

For more info, check this out: https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/5511/how-can-i-remove-all-my-edits

@GOwin yes your totally right, it's a commons. 🙂

@GOwin Yes I know about that, and that's brillian. I use Pascal Neis' version though. It has a #RSS feed and some nice stats in the RSS feed. I'm trying to keep on top of it and reviewing changesets. My idea for "auto comment bot" is to help make it easier to fix up the changes

#OpenStreetMap

@ebel

You can generate #RSS feeds for #OSMCHA. After you've configured your filters, save it in your profile and you should be able to find it's own RSS feed address from your list https://mstdn.io/media/eSagTa75F-BfB33sC0A

@GOwin cool. I'll keep using the one I have. I prefer to use non corporate versions of there are two things the same