re: girlfag terminology: I'm aware "fag" is not my term to reclaim, but tbh but all the people who for decades never protested against the term "fag hag" and now are complaining about ppl using "girlfag" can fuck right off.

what bothers them is not really the terminology, but that gendequeer people who aren't really men claim a gay male identity. things are complicated, and that's not going to go away.

I do have a little problem with the girlfag term myself, because of the "girl" in it. I never identified as a girl, I hate it when grown women are referred to as girls or fräulein or whatever diminuitive form there is. (if girl works for YOU that's fine though!)

but you know, that's the word we have ow, and I kind of have to roll with it.. meh

@distelfliege this! so much!
Das dich aufhängen an dem „nutz fag nicht, das steht dir nicht zu!!“ ist imho wirklich ne Nebelkerze weil sonst keine Alternativ“argumente“ mehr bleiben für die, die eigentlich nur nicht damit klar kommen, dass Dinge nicht mehr so schwarz/weiß sind wir sie sie kennen >:(

@schokopflaster ich hatte original son gespräch mit dem appell an mich: "nutz "fag" nicht" und so 10 min. später so: "wieso nennst du dich nicht einfach fag hag?"
i kid you not..

@distelfliege da könnte man argumentieren, dass das fag sich da ja nicht auf dich bezieht sondern auf die anderen, aber najaaaaa, weeeeeig hergeholt.

@schokopflaster jo, selbst dann wärs genauso wenig ok, wenn ich andere - selbst mit deren einverständnis - via selbstbezeichnung so bezeichne..

@distelfliege you're wrong, the issue is not transmasc people claiming a gay male identity (something they're entitled to do), the issue is reclaiming a slur that doesn't apply to them. "Fag" refers to amab queer people, period. It's not used exclusively for gay men, it's also used to insult trans women and amab nonbinary people.

"Fag hag" is used by aforementioned amab people for whom the slur is acceptable to reclaim. It's not complicated.

@distelfliege also, since you know fag is not a word you are entitled to reclaim, you should be censoring it and you should also think about maybe not policing how it's used

@noxy thanks but no thanks.
I'm also not "policing" anything.

@noxy it's simplistic how you reserve the reclaiming of "fag" for amab people. gay trans men would be affected by hatred and discrimination against gay men too, so "fag" would be theirs to reclaim as well.

I was not referring to transmasc people only, but to "genderqueer" people, on purpose. I was implying that things are more complicated.

@distelfliege it's not complicated though, people do not use the word "fag" to slur afab people. Thus you cannot reclaim it

@noxy indeed? I was insulted on the street with slurs against gay men. probably homo hating assholes can't tell what is written on someones' birth certificate?

@noxy also there are amab girlfags.

@distelfliege ok... That's all well and good, still a gross fetish, but my point is that you aren't one? You're being intentionally obtuse about what the word "fag" means and it's tiresome.

@noxy how could you tell I'm not one, from what I understand you never touched any information about girlfags by girlfags themselves?

I'm not being intentionally obtuse, I'm not responsible for your simplistic worldview. If that's tiresome, that's fine, I'm not forcing you to discuss this with me.

@noxy out of personal experience, eighter that's not the case or I'm not "transmasc" enough for that to be the case.

"fag hag" is used only by amab people? that's new to me.

@distelfliege "Fag hag" is used to refer to straight girls who cling to amab queer people, they're obnoxious as fuck. It's an in-group term that exclusively belongs to people who can reclaim the word fag. Idk how this isn't obvious.

On top of that the term "girlfag" typically means a straight girl with a gross sexual fetish for gay men, so either that's what you are or you are associating yourself with it. Not a great look either way.

@noxy you have quite a rigid definition of those terms. I've heard the "fetish" theory often, however it's too simplistic and doesn't at all represent me.

I'm not a girl and I'm not straight, I'm a genderqueer butch woman who feels her attraction to men is gay.

@distelfliege It's not a theory, that's just the only context I've ever seen that word in. I get that you aren't using it for yourself in that way. I guess I'm just saying this as a heads up, it's usually a fetish.

Anyway all of these things about you lead me to believe that 1) no one would ever use the word "fag" to slur you, thus you have nothing to reclaim and 2) you have no business posing as an authority on the matter

@noxy I'm sorry, but I'm not responsible if you didn't look up different sources of information. No one I know who identifies as a girlfag is seeing it as a fetish only, most not at all. I'm not too much into the practice of defining people's identities without taking into account their own voices.

a german equivalent of the word "fag" has been used to slur me. I don't say that to argue I am entitled to reclaim it, I say that to argue that your "slur for amab ppl only" idea is wrong, bc haters don't know which gender the people they slur were assigned at birth.

I'm not posing as an authority on anything but my own stuff here.

@distelfliege I don't know anything about German at all but in English the word "fag" refers to amab people. It is not really a homophobic slur but rather a slur toward people who are expected to be masculine but are deemed inferior for choosing not to do so. At no point did I say that you or anyone like you is not entitled to identify as gay or as whatever you like, I'm just saying if you care about not using offensive slurs, you should censor "fag".

@noxy how do people know which gender the targets of their slurs were assigned at birth?

@distelfliege It's not about correctly determining birth assignment, it's about what the person meant by it. If someone called you the word "fag" (which I think you admitted has never actually happened) it would be because they *thought* you were amab and homosexual and/or presenting in a femme way, not because they were acknowledging your butch identity and then also ridiculing your sexual orientation

@noxy what is this? "which you admitted has never actually happened"? it has happened but the person was german and was using a german term.

I don't get why you put so much emphasis on birth assignment, that's quite cissexist. gay trans men are also suffering from discrimination against gay men, and it doesn't make anything better if you run around saying that they *meant* to hurt only amab people when they hurt them.

I'm stopping this discussion now, you don't seem to be acting in good faith.

@distelfliege a German word is NOT THE SAME WORD. It's literally not even the same language oh my god. Just because they are used as synonyms does not mean they have identical meaning.

@distelfliege in Britain this term is rarely used as in our slang -fag" more commonly means a cigarette (eine Kippe).

in coastal towns you may have a "fag house" which might be raided by the Police, but not because lewd stuff is occuring there.. 20 cigarettes in UK can cost over €11 because of taxes, folk travel to BE/DE and other EU nations, buy in bulk and resell for profit (which is illegal)

we did have the same stereotype about earrings but other way round (L/R reversed!)

@vfrmedia thanks for the funny anecdotes and the help getting what lewd means!

the reversed earrings thing is especially funny when I think about traffic participants in UK and DE doing linksverkehr and rechtsverkehr ;D

@distelfliege I was more surprised the earring "indication" was also used in DE as I'd thought society over there was more advanced than 1980s UK; although looking at history this was by very narrow margin and both countries had split ages of consent, so younger folk dared not come out for fear of being arrested for sex offences.

Although youth in mid-late 80s UK (at least my friends) were often *more* tolerant than today, no one judged if anyone else was straight or gay!

@vfrmedia I grew up in the very christian south of DE - I'm not sure if germany could be called "more advanced" at all though!

I grew up in the late 80s/early 90ies, and the aids crisis hit germany as well. that was when southern german politicians even talked about putting hiv-positive people into camps, causing many to flee the south. bavaria closed its borders to hiv positive "ausländer" back then. it was awful.

@distelfliege I'd noticed Bavaria is often viewed as "whole different country" and is more traditional/religious but didn't know until now CSU was *that* bad (its not even written on DE Wikipedia). I''ve heard of ppl fleeing some areas of DE for CH, NL, DK and even UK because "lifestyle" did not "fit in", not only LGBT but folk who did drugs etc. perhaps also explains "Amsterdam" by Cora" which I always thought had some deeper meaning than most Disco-Schlager of that era...

@vfrmedia yes, that's quite true.. CSU politicians didn't manage to put their fascist ideas into practice, but it was enough to create a climate of fear, causing people to leave as a precaution.
I'm from Baden Württemberg, but also from a small town where people who didn't fit in usually left after finishing school.