@Puck oh no, how awful! I hope you weren't injured! asshole..

@distelfliege In the end, it panned out well for me - I was on my way to my final test in high school and the teacher, a notoriously tough grader, saw that I was in shock after a classmate called attention to it, gave me an automatic A, and sent me to the nurse's office. I have since become pretty traumatized by cars in some other ways but that particular instance was a victory!

@Puck yay! I've been hit two times and nothing serious happened, luckily, but being traumatized by cars is a thing for me too.

@necrosis ich hätte lust die mit nem richtigen panzer niederzupanzern :P

@distelfliege @TQ totally understand your anger and 'lucky you' - no Accident. (I am also nearly daily cycling to wirk and more)
But my point is the missing respekt and understanding on both sides (People in cars & on bikes) will not pass away by blaming than by daily training in the streets.
And how you 'train' other drivers is up to you :wink:
for cardrivers - a shout and sometimes a punsh on the roof or the side
for cyclists - the horn or lights are not hurting

@vilbi @TQ disagree: oh yes, the horn IS hurting. if you are in your rolling fortress already, you can just as well roll down your window and say what you think is wrong. btw if it comes to a clash it would not be you paying the price.
it's not "both sides". impact, force, and vulnerability is absolutely not equal in this situation.

doch, die hupe schadet! wenn wer in der rollenden festung sitzt, kann man auch das fenster öffnen und reden. bei einer kollision zahlt der schwächere. es sind nicht "beide seiten". auswirkung, kraft und verletzbarkeit ist absolut ungleich verteilt in der situation.

@TQ @distelfliege the point of using the horn as a car driver is usefull in often cases of ignoring red traffic lights by cycles... not for your situation! And yes the car is stronger. But I was pointing to the general need of building understanding on both sides.

@vilbi @TQ

you can be assured: if a cyclist ignores a red traffic light, they have checked before if that's a danger for them. If I ignore a red light it's often times because that is even safer for me. many cyclists get injured because motorists pay no attention while making a turn right maneuver.
so if I deliberately run over the red light to avoid that, I don't need motorists honking at me. I know very well what I'm doing and why. they don't.

and as for the "mutual understanding on both sides" thing: people blabber a lot about that. it's an empty phrase. what is there to understand? tell me. please.

@TQ @vilbi check out the "idaho stop" for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop
and

@vilbi @TQ especially the "positions" section. it's measurably safer, studies find. while the other side is simply stating "everyone should have the same rights and duties!" without evidence that that's beneficial.

@distelfliege @TQ This "Iderho stop" rule is in general good and of course saver for cyclists. But it is actual not the regulation in germany, so you can#t expect that any trafic participant is calculation this as prediction of behaviour of others...

@vilbi I'd be happy if they would leave me alone to do my thing as long as I don't bother them.

@distelfliege @TQ Here my answer to the ""empty phrase": My personal experience from daily driving by bike, same route through normal traffic is:
- any change in layout of cycle ways is causing trouble
- car drivers get used to a change too slow (over some months)
- takling to car drivers about passing too close ist sometimes possible at traffic lights
- in most cases this talk seems to help seldom it is waste of time
so I am quite positive about rising understanding

@vilbi @TQ
you are talking about educating motorists. we are in agreement that education of motorists is needed very much! I wanted to know what kind of education you think cyclists need. you know, the "mutual" thing.

in my experience, it is not only mostly a waste of time to talk, but I also risk physical violence. one person was beaten up, another was run over by a car deliberately. a coworker of mine was threatened with physical violence. after these cases happened in my city I stopped confronting motorists.

@distelfliege @TQ fair point of agressive reactions of some people thinking they have the power and therfor the right on their side... but idiots are everywhere and this does not stop me in beleaving 'most are no idiots'. Back to the education cyclists need:
- drive with light when it is dark! (I had 3 accidents at night with dark fast crossing cycles the last 30 years and uncoutible near misses)
- When ignoring traffic signs be aware that others don't expect that!

@vilbi I know that violent attackers are the minority. but unfortunately I can't know beforehand, so I am rather silent. I got even chased by a cab and had to flee into a park one time.

about the education: agreed. but still, it's me suffering the consequences if I ignore my own safety. and i certainly would not blame motorists for my own carelessness.

I was looking for examples of what are typical motorists' problems, that I need to be more understanding of? what can I help them with? traffic jams? lack of parking spots? I'm already helping them with that - by not driving a car. ;)