@amphetamine @Ulfra_Wolfe

I've often wanted to write a benevolent take on a Borg-like system.

@woozle @amphetamine

RULE ONE: CONSENT TO JOIN COLLECTIVE

That alone would make a HUGE difference!

@Ulfra_Wolfe @woozle @amphetamine the ability to disconnect if you needed it would be a huge deal, too. I love the concept of a networked mind but I don't think i could live with it 24/7, 365

@Eldritch_Horrorgirl @woozle @amphetamine

Also important.

Though I'd be terrified a fragile member might go individual before suicide, so I'd at least ask for some kind of escort (does not need to be a sapient escort)

@Ulfra_Wolfe @Eldritch_Horrorgirl @amphetamine

I'd want the situation to be that every individual was known and loved by the others (as many as possible), so that there would be plenty of warning if an individual was having emotional difficulty.

@Ulfra_Wolfe @woozle
I agree conceptually, but also am not fond of the idea of someone attempting to end their life, being restrained/incapacitated by some manner of drone, and waking up connected back to the network. There'd have to be a different solution than forcible stopping
Perhaps connecting them via private connection to important or who can help them through the situation?

@Eldritch_Horrorgirl @woozle Yeah, I never meant to imply forcible restraint. But a whimpering dog friend can maybe help.

But yeah, that would be the preferred solution what you said.

@Eldritch_Horrorgirl @Ulfra_Wolfe

As much as it hurts to contemplate, I'm inclined to support a right to suicide for purely emotional reasons (it should be a given for medical reasons, I think).

...though I do want there to be a process to minimize mistakes, to make sure there's no other way.

(I could go on, but this may be an upsetting subject even with CW.)

@woozle @Ulfra_Wolfe yeah it's DEEPLY complex and uncomfortable
the issue of bodily autonomy V suicide is um, how do you say, way out of my pay grade to figure out.

@Eldritch_Horrorgirl @woozle Yeeeeah, this convo took a dark turn, and it's partly my fault haha.

@Ulfra_Wolfe @Eldritch_Horrorgirl

Well, the dark side of stuff *does* need to be addressed in order to nurture the brighter side...

...but it's probably more suitable for another discussion venue ^.^

@Ulfra_Wolfe @amphetamine

Decisions made by consensus.

Freedom to disconnect, informationally and/or physically (as @Eldritch_Horrorgirl suggested).

Even better, material support for individual "sabbaticals" -- send individuals off to explore the cosmos and bring back new experiences and ideas!

I could go on...

@woozle

@Ulfra_Wolfe @Eldritch_Horrorgirl

please remove from imminent longthread :)

@woozle @amphetamine @Ulfra_Wolfe Check out _Aristoi_ by Walter Jon Williams.

@woozle @amphetamine @Ulfra_Wolfe Body swaps if necessary. especially for trans folx in the collective.

@maritroniuity @woozle @amphetamine @Ulfra_Wolfe While I think consent is important, consent gets fuzzy when you're talking about two entities with vastly different power, i.e. an individual and the collective.

For example, do people really consent to join Facebook when it's the only way to keep up with friends and family? It seems like the real opposites aren't "join Facebook" and "don't join Facebook", but between "join Facebook" and "destroy Facebook."

@seanl @maritroniuity @Ulfra_Wolfe

The Collective would need to use open protocols for communicating (and economic exchange?) with non-members.

I'm presuming that Collective membership isn't the only option for receiving certain necessary services, i.e. there's plenty of civilization outside of it.

If the Collective *is* the only option... that would be a different story, though also worth exploring.

@woozle @maritroniuity @Ulfra_Wolfe I guess the conclusion I'm reaching is that large collectives should not exist at all, because they inherently mean that the choice between joining and not joining is not truly voluntary. Likewise if there are a bunch of collectives but they have decided among themselves (as our nation-states have) to make it very hard to form a new one.

@seanl @maritroniuity @Ulfra_Wolfe

I disagree with your conclusion, and I don't see the reasoning by which you reached it.

Your previous toot offered some valid reasoning, but I believe I addressed the issues it raised -- and this, your second toot, seems to be based upon an assumption that they have not been addressed.

@woozle @maritroniuity @Ulfra_Wolfe Yeah, I'm making a bit of a leap that's hard to fit in 500 characters. My reasoning is that once you start having very large collectives, the consequences of opting out change. The moral question is, do people collectively have the right to make a choice that causes a significant degradation in the standard of living of those who don't make that choice?

@Ulfra_Wolfe @maritroniuity @woozle Simply disallowing very large collectives seems to address the problem, but I can think of examples like technological & social progress where people who opt out suffer.

@woozle @maritroniuity @seanl I wasn't talking state government or Facebook when I mentioned collectives, and I think this is a subject we will not see eye to eye on

@Ulfra_Wolfe @woozle @maritroniuity Are you saying Facebook isn't a valid analogy because it's not really a community, and governments aren't because they're not based on consent?

I'm something of a recovering individualist who has become a lot more open to collectivist ideas, so I'm trying to understand what you're saying. If you'd prefer to limit discussion to folks who are already closer to you in ideology, that's fine with me.

@seanl @maritroniuity @woozle @Ulfra_Wolfe gentle reminder i asked to be off this thread

@amphetamine @seanl @maritroniuity @Ulfra_Wolfe

I don't think Marvin or Mari saw that request, but now they have.

@maritroniuity @Ulfra_Wolfe

Heck, I hope we can do that soonish with or without a Collective.

Not necessarily swaps, even; just the ability to regrow / replace / re-engineer any body part as needed. Some kind of nanite/virus thing to adjust genetics as needed. Brain backups & brain prosthetics.