@witchfynder_finder @benhamill it's depressing to realize that I cant think of really any fantasy lit that tries to engage with these kind of issues other than Orcs, which as you say is fatally flawed. it seems like everyone who tries to do more serious things in fantasy just rejects this whole kind of Tolkein/D&D style setting from the very beginning. the only other obvious case I can think of which has individuals overcoming presets are those Drizzt books in pure D&D setting but I certainly wouldnt hold those up as an example of anything intersting here ... trading one boring preset for another