@a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl Mmm, possibly, but at least their pushing the technology and spurring other manufacturers to try and keep up. Again, still better than the alternatives. :/

@a_breakin_glass @Angle @Concerned_Catgirl That really depends on your definition of shit-tier.

Their initial quality control is absolutely shit-tier - malaise-era American levels of bad. (It seems that after the fact, things get fixed, though.) Their treatment of independent service (straight-up not providing any info on it, tying things to the mothership) is also incredibly shitty.

@Concerned_Catgirl @Angle @a_breakin_glass ...however, there's another way to look at it. Teslas are in some ways shit-tier *cars*, but they're not shit-tier *electric cars*, if that makes sense.

Tesla is the only carmaker making EVs that can fully replace most people's internal combustion cars, really. They're the only one that deployed the infrastructure necessary to do it, for one.

Most automakers see EVs as something they're forced to make.

@a_breakin_glass @Angle @Concerned_Catgirl The closest competition for Tesla is the Chevy Bolt, with similar range to Tesla's shorter range offerings.

However, doing a long distance trip that requires charging en route in a Bolt is nearly impossible, or at least much slower, due to a lack of public fast charging - and GM's CEO has zero interest in deploying that infrastructure, because their gas and diesel offerings can't use it.

@Concerned_Catgirl @Angle @a_breakin_glass If you're lucky and get 80 kW+ DC chargers on your route, you can get 90 mi of range in 30 min. (Note that Tesla's Supercharger network can do almost twice that rate of charge.)

More likely, you might find 50 kW chargers - even slower. Oh, and these fast chargers tend to be ruinously expensive.

But, you're also most likely to only get 7.2 kW chargers - 8 hours for a full charge. Not really practical for roadtrips.

@a_breakin_glass @Angle @Concerned_Catgirl And then, because the Bolt is a cynical attempt to comply with government mandates, GM cut some major corners on things.

The most notable example is the seats, which have almost no padding, and plastic frames that are extremely narrow, and dig into a lot of people. These are literally the second worst seats I've sat in in a vehicle.

@bhtooefr @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl Oh! What about Tesla releasing their patents? I take it that wasn't everything? :/

@Angle @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl As far as I'm aware, Tesla released all of their patents for good faith use by other automakers. (As I understand, this is basically a patent non-aggression pact. Sue them for violating your patents, and your patent license is revoked.)

However, at least until recently, the other automakers don't want to make EVs. They see them as things that they're forced to build because of California, really.

@Concerned_Catgirl @a_breakin_glass @Angle This is really one thing that pisses me off - I really wish that there were good EV options that *weren't* Tesla. Both because it may force Tesla to be less shitty about certain things, and because there's some things I don't like about Tesla's general approaches to things (touchscreen-heavy UI, anyone?)

But no, the automakers have to be dragged kicking and screaming into making EVs.

@Angle @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl Of course, then, even when an automaker legitimately wants to make an alternative powertrain, the legacy dealer networks in the US hate selling them.

They won't even charge it before test drives, they know nothing about the product, and they steer customers away from them to higher-profit ICE vehicles (that need more service, the real profit driver for dealerships). "You don't want an EV, here's a big truck!"

@Concerned_Catgirl @a_breakin_glass @Angle That's another reason why EV advocates tend to love Tesla, because Tesla is fighting the laws that rent-seeking dealerships had established over decades, to have control over the whole sales chain.

They also claim that service isn't a profit center for them, but I wonder how true that is - why restrict service documentation in that case?

@bhtooefr @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl What about random people? Can I access Teslas patents? Or am I confusing open patent with open source? :/

@Angle @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl Looks like it's a yes, anyone who wants to use their patents in good faith can: https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you

@bhtooefr @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl But does that actually mean that you can download the schematics for any of them? or just that if you happen to make your own schematics that use their patents, they won't sue you? :/

@Angle @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl That's exactly what that means. A patent describes a method for doing a thing, it doesn't describe how to make the thing.

@bhtooefr @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl Mmm, gotcha. Still pretty cool though. Though I'm not sure how this ties into their restriction of service documentation? :/

@Angle @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl Basically means, if you're an automotive engineer, you can design things using their patents and not get sued (or get your company sued).

If you're a technician working on the things, well, you basically get to reverse engineer the thing and hack around their DRM on the parts to fix it.

@bhtooefr @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl Huh, thats super obnoxious. I hope they change that. :/

@Angle @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl Worth noting that they HAVE changed it, if you have a credit card with a Massachusetts address - Massachusetts requires that they provide service documentation to anyone that pays.

However, as I understand, it's pretty much them being dragged kicking and screaming into it, and minimally complying with the law. Much like how the other automakers handle EVs for California, really.

@bhtooefr @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl How good is said service documentation, once you get your hands on it? OK, or second worst seat you've ever encuntered in a car? :P

@Angle @a_breakin_glass @Concerned_Catgirl I've not personally seen it, so I can't say details.

(Also, for what it's worth, the first worst seat I've encountered was in a 2017 F-250 XL regular cab. Fine at first, but something about the seat back caused incredible lower back pain to the point that I was unable to walk the next day, after about an hour and a half of driving in it.)

@Concerned_Catgirl @Angle @a_breakin_glass And consider that this is the best non-Tesla battery electric vehicle, overall.

You've got the Fiat 500e, which is actually mechanically decent, but only has 60-90 miles of range, doesn't support any DC fast charging (and you're waiting, oh, 3+ hours to charge up to full), is only on sale in California and Oregon (because it only exists for cynical compliance), and Fiat's CEO openly begs people not to buy it.

@a_breakin_glass @Angle @Concerned_Catgirl You've got the Nissan LEAF, which was one of the first mainstream EVs in the modern era, it's a decent if cheapish car, although short range (originally below 80 miles, now up to 150 miles).

However, they cheaped out in some areas... like battery cooling. Because of this, battery degradation is a huge issue on these cars, and even through several battery upgrades, it hasn't yet been fixed.

@bob @Concerned_Catgirl But remember, that was a test rocket. He thought it was very likely it would fail and explode. Thus, putting anything important on it would have been silly. The usual load put on these rockets is just a stack of bricks. Thus, trading that out for something silly makes perfect sense.

@Concerned_Catgirl @bob Personally, I would probably have reached out to like, colleges and high schools or something, and asked if any of them wanted to have their science classes put together some cheap experiments or sensors or whatever, and send those up. Thats a lot of effort and expense I don't think Spacex wanted to invest though, and I can see why. XD