@Laurelai Hmm, thats a good point. Band aids and temporary solutions do have their place. I just don't want people to go thinking this is all that needs to be done, when it really isn't. :/

@Angle Lowering your fever when sick probably saves lives :)

@Angle @Laurelai In all seriousness, while I'm 100% for universal basic income, I know it will be attacked by capitalists and only work if it's one step in a continuing program pushing equality forward.

@cute_weeds @Laurelai Another point I've seen made is that there are too many ways to bleed money out of people - raising rents, raising prices, etc, etc. We might be better off just offering free services - free food, free transportation, etc? :/

@Angle @Laurelai Yeah, it's temporary relief that would be undermined by the wealthy.

Hey, I'd make a terrible leader, but I'd be glad if a UBI gave people some breathing room and pushed attitudes to the left. Then again, I was also only half kidding about the richeating.

@cute_weeds @Laurelai But would it? What if all it does is expend a whole lot of political capital and give people another reason to go about "See! Socialism doesn't work!"

@Angle @cute_weeds Because it will work. Its worked where its been tried, in fact when they find out how well it works capitalists try to kill trials of it. All you need to do is get it enacted and people will see with their own eyes how well it works.

@Laurelai @cute_weeds Do you have any links on hand? I'd love to read about that. :P

@cute_weeds @Laurelai If not thats cool, I can look it up myself. But if you have something cool bookmarked I'd love to see it. XD

@Angle @cute_weeds i believe it was the Mincome experiments in manitoba

@cute_weeds @Angle Breathing room is what we need right now, how you keep the capitalist class from taking the gains we make, is by making more and more bold demands. Today its single payer and UBI, tomorrow, its nationalizing healthcare and utilities etc etc. You keep on the offensive and you dont stop until there arent any capitalist left.

@Angle @cute_weeds We can do that. But for now stabilizing the situation so we dont tailspin into a dictatorship powered by robot labor is kind of important.

@Laurelai @cute_weeds Mmm, I agree - but I'm not certain that UBI /is/ that stabilization. It might end up being just another piece of the problem. I guess ultimately my position is "This is a very complicated and very difficult problem and it won't be easily solved, and we need to think very hard about it, not just push the first solution we find."

@Angle @cute_weeds @Laurelai

...and ask people to contribute back reasonable amounts of their time / expertise / money-if-they-start-to-do-better / other-resources, counting on their innate goodness -- which is apparently not just underrated but actively denied by capitalist propaganda.

@woozle @cute_weeds @Laurelai Mmm, I generally agree? I'm leery about relying too much on people innate goodness, though. Not because I don't believe in it, but because that effectively rewards the people who are jerks and don't contribute... :/

@Angle @cute_weeds @Laurelai

Yes. There have to be checks to prevent parasitism. My point is not that we should trust everyone, but that you can trust *most* people to want to help.

@woozle @Angle @cute_weeds Also bad logic jobs are going away and they arent coming back and a lot of people are becoming more and more unemployable. We have to stop placing so much value on being able to work.

@Laurelai @Angle @cute_weeds

I've actually been saying this for several years now: we have to stop depending on "employment" as a means of allocating basic goods and services. It's not working anymore.

@woozle @Laurelai @cute_weeds Hey have you seen my comment thread with @sahil? You might find it interesting. It tackles much these same issues. XD

@Angle @Laurelai @cute_weeds @sahil

The one about AI/scarcity? https://witches.town/users/Angle/updates/509468

@woozle @Laurelai @cute_weeds @sahil Yup! That's the one! XD

@woozle @Angle @cute_weeds @sahil http://theconversation.com/will-ai-spell-the-end-of-humanity-the-tech-industry-wants-you-to-think-so-67264

@Laurelai @woozle @cute_weeds @sahil An okay article, though I get a distinct sense of "I don't know what I'm talking about but heres an article read it maybe?" All in all, I think it argues in roughly the same direction I do, though it's a lot more optimistic than I am, especially if it thinks the problem can be solved by the government. XD

@sahil @cute_weeds @woozle @Laurelai While having AI kill us all is certainly possible, it's a problem we know about and are prepared to face. Inequality, meanwhile, is a problem we've had since the dawn of human society, and so far the closest we've come to a solution is "Slap a bunch of band-aids on it, pretend it's not there, and hope it goes away." Will that "solution" hold up when A.I. comes into play? Maybe, but I wouldn't count on it...

@Angle @sahil @cute_weeds @Laurelai

For reference, I worked in neural network research in 1990-1 when the superduperest PC we could get (for $11k+) was a 486-25 with 32 MB of RAM.

<prophetic voice>I foresaw the resurgence of neural nets...</voice>

Should have written about it somewhere. Bleh.

Seems mysterious that we don't seem to have AI which can answer basic questions like "My chair is red. What color is my chair?"

@Angle @sahil @cute_weeds @woozle @Laurelai

Highly unlikely.

Here's Kurzgesagt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSKi8HfcxEk

Here's CGP Grey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU

(And here's my take: http://orrery.prismaticmedia.com/2017/07/12/socialism/)

@literorrery @Angle @sahil @cute_weeds @woozle If you like CGP grey watch this one. AI is recreating the resource curse in capitalist democracies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

@Laurelai @literorrery @Angle @sahil @cute_weeds

I'm about a third of the way through, and... his model seems a bit simplistic, though he does bring up some interesting points about how power can work.

@woozle @literorrery @Angle @sahil @cute_weeds Its simplified for the sake of a video, but the source book goes into a lot more detail using historical examples

@Laurelai @Angle @cute_weeds @sahil

I think if I tried to say all the things I had to say about this, it would use up all the toots.

@woozle @Laurelai @cute_weeds @sahil Haha yeah? Maybe give us the short bversion, then? :P

@Angle @Laurelai @cute_weeds @sahil

Ok. Snippets without context; #ama:

* It's not as simple as "they will destroy us" OR "...save us"
* brain uploading will be huge, but now hugely more difficult than people like RK seem to realize
* AI: who decides what the being's goals/drives are? If it's a bigcorp, then yes, I worry
* current state of art does seem strangely like cranked-up 1990s version

That's all that fits. 54321

@Laurelai @Angle While we're at it, let's stop the foodwaste in the production chain. I mean, just all the bananas that get wasted every day because they are too long or too short, could probably feed a country or two.

@maloki @Angle Food waste is definitely a big issue, but lack of food availability is not due to lack of food, we produce enough now to feed 10 billion and productivity only goes up. Our problem is distribution, one UBI and SNAP for all can solve

@Laurelai Yeah, I know that distribution is a problem as well. It's just crazy to me that profit is more important than basic human decency. And .... I mean, I am sure they could sell those bananas that are bigger or smaller and still make a crap tone of extra money if it's that important. @Angle

@maloki @Angle Doesnt do any good to sell them if the poor lack access to the income to buy them. Last time i had a banana was 6 months ago, its simply not worth it to buy them when i can get more calories and nutrients for less money, unfortunately its junk food. But junk food doesnt spoil in 2 days.

@Laurelai Fair point.

@Laurelai @Angle
Not sure if it's different in the UK, but our core set of issues are that we can be exploited out of any benefit - we need more rights and protections first, then UBI could help.

Rent keeps going up, companies like Uber/Deliveroo can employee minimum wage 'contractors' without giving them a safe number of hours to live on, or fine them for missing shifts, food/grocery price is unstable 'cos Brexit, NHS waiting might soon mean you need private care.

We need rent caps & job rights. UBI stops working when it just gets eaten into by other companies'/landlords' actions.

@edensaesthetic @Angle Yes all of those things are needed too. Capitalism is horrible. As for job rights, jobs are going away and they are never coming back and we need to address that.

@edensaesthetic @Angle One of the things though that show UBI is critical is the fact that most of the job losses arent from outsourcing, they are from automation. Those jobs are just vanishing.

@edensaesthetic @Laurelai @Angle I support UBI but the danger across *all* of Europe (UK+mainland) is it could just as easily be used to "disrupt" existing public sector services- not just things that are 100% free at source but part subsidised (a lot of stuff like public transport, community centres, education services etc is like this), ultra-capitalists will likely argue for all these to be defunded..

@cute_weeds @Laurelai Mmm, that could work? But of course, you'll face constant pressure to add new loop holes, lower taxes, add new subsidies... At the end of the say, it's kinda like getting into a shoving match with a river. :/

@Angle @Laurelai "A shoving match with a river" is a pretty excellent description of social justice work in a free-market society, if you ask me.

@woozle @Angle @Laurelai that's a good way to look at it, as something of a litmus test, and perhaps a bridge strategy.

I used to be a big UBI proponent but if it's executed as a function of the government it actually reduces autonomy. It's an improvement for sure, but there needs to be a next step.

Also some people overlook that *everyone* needs to receive it, otherwise you have all the same social alienation as welfare, etc.

@jjg @Angle @Laurelai

The advantage that it *does* have, as a talking-point anyway, is that it doesn't have the totalitarianism baggage associated with it that "socialism" and "communism" do -- and it's been highly successful whenever attempted, at any scale. So it's a good way to peel the reasonable people away from capitalist dogma.

Once they make it that far, then they could be ready for universal co-operatization...

@woozle @jjg @Angle @Laurelai Distributism is a fave of mine. Smallest unit possible does the job politically, it's socialist and cooperative both. I think it's just not popular because of its origins. I like the ideas though. I only know of two real world experiments.

@gemlog @woozle @Angle @Laurelai I hadn't heard of that before, I'll have to check it out.

@jjg @gemlog @Angle @Laurelai

Wikipedia says that one of its core tenets is the right of private property ownership; I'm increasingly skeptical of that -- especially if there are no limits to ownership.

It's not a terrible idea, but it seems like yet another compromise with the old, bad ways.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism

@jjg I think UBI is inevitable eventually. It is not the end goal but a important part on the way to it. As we discussed in the other thread. I guess you are afraid it will lead to dependence but as I see it, it is the opposite. Change has to be organic.

How do you see welfare as alienating?

cc: @woozle @Angle @Laurelai

@shellkr @jjg @Angle @Laurelai

I think jjg meant it's alienating *unless* it's truly universal.

If it's not universal, then there's a gatekeeping process (which can be made unpleasant), "who gets it" can become a political tool, stigma can be attached to it, etc.

@woozle @jjg @Angle @Laurelai Okay.. but where is welfare like that? It is typically a right all citizens have.. as long as they don't misuse it. Like buying drugs for the soc money that should have gone to a roof over your head.

@shellkr @jjg @Angle @Laurelai

Not in the US, it isn't.

@Laurelai @Angle @jjg @shellkr

That is to say, it's not a right here. It's difficult to get, it's not very much, you're sharply limited as to what you can do with it (even restricted to specific brands of food -- and not because they're better), constantly being cut, time-consuming to receive, byzantine in terms of what benefits are available under what circumstances...

@woozle @jjg @Angle @Laurelai The US doesn't really have a welfare system... It is what happens when you do not have one. Which makes it a rather good argument for a real welfare system.

I guess you could talk about alienation when it comes to non-citizens... but that is more of a migration discussion than one about UBI.

@shellkr @jjg @Angle @Laurelai

I gather things are almost as bad in the UK, however -- and they were starting from a point of having a much more solid system.

@woozle @jjg @Angle @Laurelai You can't really talk about bad examples when better ones exist. If one can make a good welfare system in one country then that would be what everyone should aspire after. The less welfare your system offer the more alienated and socioeconomically stressed the citizens will be.

@shellkr @jjg @Angle @Laurelai

Bad examples were the reason for the objection in the first place: "see what can happen; how can we prevent this?"

@woozle @jjg @Angle @Laurelai I don't quite follow.... there is no way you can only use bad examples as an attest for all. That would be disingenuous. Bad examples just show how something should not be done. Talk about the Scandinavian welfare. Where is the alienation there?

@shellkr @jjg @Angle @Laurelai

The worst cases are the failure modes. We want to avoid failure modes.

@woozle @jjg @Laurelai @shellkr For myself, I'm an American. I'm not really familiar with the Scandinavian welfare models other than that I've heard they're generally pretty good. I am familiar with the american welfare system and the constant cries for cuts and demonization of "welfare queens" and all that jazz. as for examples, I agree its important to look at bad ones just so you can avoid having them happen.

@shellkr @woozle @Angle @Laurelai yes, I was speaking from the perspective of the US system. We do things like force people to pee in cups before allowing them a crust of bread, and subject anyone with the audacity to use the system to constant criticism.

There's a lot of "why do I have to work so them freeloaders can do noting?" sentiment that would be somewhat squelched if everyone was receiving the benefit.

@shellkr @woozle @Laurelai @jjg well, maybe. Lets not be too optimistic. XD

@jjg @woozle @Angle @Laurelai That explains your sentiment but please do not use US failure as an example to not have real welfare or UBI. To me welfare is a must and UBI is the inevitable next step. UBI is not a full replacement though... as it is flat and will not have the redistribution of resources a normal system have. There still have to be extra safety net for those with disability e.t.c... as they can't use their UBI the same.

@jjg @woozle @Laurelai @shellkr No see, the point here is "these things must be done right", not "we shouldn't do them."

@jjg @woozle @Laurelai @shellkr No see, the point here is "these things must be done right", not "we shouldn't do them."

@shellkr @woozle @Angle @Laurelai if having a functional welfare system is a prerequisite for UBI, the US is F'd :)

@jjg @woozle @Angle @Laurelai It's not really a prerequisite... but it might be less painful to introduce an UBI where the general welfare work.

A good welfare will help people be "productive" and self-reliable. For that you need to sincerely help. Putting more stress on people will just end up with what those people fear the most.. the mythical welfare queens or worse... criminality. It will not stop people from applying.

@shellkr @jjg @Angle @Laurelai

Yes, if there already were such a system, it probably would be easier.

No, there isn't a good one in place, so trying to do welfare first and *then* UBI is giving yourself extra work.

...and anyway, UBI itself should just be an intermediate step towards a voter-owned economy,